Curse

Div · Dec 06, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

I'm wondering what the future is going to look like for GW1 pvp.

If you haven't noticed, Anet realized they shouldn't really focus on PvP anymore when they announced the AT system ~2 years ago.

The fact that the tourneys are automated gives them the excuse of not having to deal with server lags resulting in non-loading players, playoff and finals matches that can't be replayed despite serious errors for one or both teams often costing a team thousands of dollars or RPs in winnings (and a gold trim in some cases), trims given out to teams that shouldn't have gotten a trim, spending time with qualifier rounds so that playoff matches aren't between terrible teams, unfair pings (generally 100 vs 500) when Americans play on Euro servers or vice versa, etc.

And I don't understand people having to state over and over the obvious that GW is a PvE game now. No shit PvE is going to attract the most people. You can have mental retardation or be an ignorant little kid and still enjoy the PvE content. Bad players can cry on forums and beg to make PvE easier so that idiots with no skill can perform well. You can't "make PvP easier" if you're a bad player. You get weeded out pretty quickly if you're terrible in PvP, which results in them crying to their mommies and going back to PvE and decreasing the PvP playerbase.

ensoriki · Dec 06, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If I went around killing puppies on my own time, how would that be any better than killing puppies while I'm on the clock for my employer?

My criticisms of how Izzy has handled game balance could fill a small book, but I will try to condense them down to four main points:

1. His attitude that it's perfectly OK to nerf something into garbage because players can just switch to other options is foolish and shortsighted. By taking things that are "too strong" and demoting them straight to "absolute junk," while skipping over "just right," he has steadily eroded the supply of "just right" options. He's left us with an ever-shrinking set of "best" options and a huge pile of unusable junk. This leads to stale builds and stale gameplay.

2. His refusal to nerf the root cause of degenerate builds, and instead nerfing some collateral aspect of the builds, always ends up destroying non-degenerate builds in the process, and leaving the degenerate builds capable of returning.

The most famous example is probably IWAY. It was clear to everyone and their brother that IWAY (the skill) was the root cause of the problems with IWAY (the teambuild). Everyone knew that IWAY (the skill) needed to be nerfed to put an end to it. So what happened? Orders got nerfed. That's right, Orders. The end result? PvE Orders necros in the Ruins of the Tombs B/P teams all watched their builds go poof as collateral damage for no good reason; and IWAY (the teambuild) continues to live on to this day in modified forms (though it's often said Nightfall Powercreep finally ended its superiority).

The example that still pisses me off the most is Spirit Spam. N/Rt's were holding halls using spirits + soul reaping for an infinite energy engine. Again, it was clear to everyone that, to put an end to this, soul reaping needed to be changed to not trigger on spirits. What happened? Soul reaping on spirits was reduced to half and soul reaping was raped with a ridiculous, clumsy timer. PvE necros everywhere were (and some remain) rightfully pissed off about their gutted primary attribute; and Spirit Spam teams continued to hold halls. Eventually the timer was made a little less bad (it's still awful though), and Spirit Spam was finally killed by totally removing SR triggering from spirits, like it should have been in the first place.

3. GW is primarily a PvE game, and I think skill balances should focus around what PvE needs. Izzy doesn't do that. Sometimes he throws us a ridiculously overpowered bone to keep us happy (see the un-Ether-Renewal-ing of Ether Renewal), but he never gives any serious consideration to how to make a broad selection of skills useful (but not overpowered) in PvE. What's worse, he's not even aware of the impact of his PvP-oriented changes in PvE.

Example: Every high-end PvE necromancer currently playing let out a huge "WTF?!" when he recently nerfed OoU and declared it a buff. Why'd he do it? Turns out he didn't know that anyone even used it, much less that it was the unquestionably best elite for human MM builds. At least he changed it back after enough pressure from the community...

4. And that brings me to point four. Izzy has a LOT of trouble admitting when he's wrong. There's a whole lot of totally unnecessary nerfs still in-game because removing them would mean admitting that he shouldn't have made them in the first place. (The prime example being the ugly mess that he made of soul reaping and just left there.) In some respects, Izzy "giving up" on GW1 has been a good thing here, because it's made him less stubborn and more willing to revert his mistakes.

Heres 5 dollars.
Make that small book.

Div · Dec 06, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Example: Every high-end PvE necromancer currently playing let out a huge "WTF?!" when he recently nerfed OoU and declared it a buff. Why'd he do it? Turns out he didn't know that anyone even used it, much less that it was the unquestionably best elite for human MM builds.

He usually knows. Jaden and I have been telling him what skill changes are going to drastically affect PvE if we see the potential changes ahead of time. He either doesn't see it, ignores it, or thinks we're bad at PvE. Then he makes the change and get bashed by the PvE community.

dilan155 · Dec 06, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie the reaper

Oh gaaaaaaaaaawd, I laughed soooooo hard.

Maybe by 1 team having more skilled players than the other team? Just a suggestion there....

Seriously, I actually can't get over the fact that someone actually said that, epic lolz

that may happen when an experienced team plays against a inexperienced team, but what if there both same experienced, in the tournaments now a days one team wins by having a build that beat the other teams build , not by having more skill than another. its a bit like rock paper scissors really, just much more complexed.

Krill · Dec 06, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

The problem I see beyond Izzy and the general lack of care anet has shown towards PvP since NF is they have 100% control over the game. We have to play on their game servers and there are no provisions for official end user modifications to the game. In other successful competitive games the player community and competitive apparatus (e.g. CAL, ClanBase) have a lot of latitude for modifying games to make them better for competition. Good examples of that are UTComp and CPM for UT and Quake, respectively. Even battle.net games have provisions for custom games that have lead to popular offshoots such as DoTA. Guild Wars has none of that, the most that was accomplished were some 3rd party GvG leagues.

Hopefully with GW2 they realize this folly and understand how it has suffocated the possibility for better competition and fun offshoots for PvP that just aren't thought of by anet employees.

lutz · Dec 06, 2008, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

Everything Izzy's doing in gw1 is on his own time.

Keep that in mind next time you bash him.

Everything he needs to do is pretty much already done for him.

[[Rend Enchantments]: 10 energy, 25 second recharge, 1...3 enchantments, with 2 enchantments at 9 curse spec, 3 at 13 curse spec. Increase damage taken to 85...30 per monk enchantment.
[[Gaze of Contempt]: 25 recharge. Change functionality to "If target foe is under 50% health, that foe loses 3 enchantments."
[[Warrior's Endurance]: 5e, 25s recharge, 2...19 duration. Change functionality to "You gain 3 energy for every successful attack you make. This skill ends when you use a skill that costs energy."
[[Hunter's Shot]: Increase casting time to normal.
[[Melandru's Shot]: Lower damage to +8...20.
[[Burning Arrow]: Lower damage to +5...22. Decrease burning duration on all specs by 1.
[[Lyssa's Aura]: Change to: "This enchantment reapplies itself every time you cast a Mesmer spell on a foe."
[[Mirror of Ice]: Reduce damage to 5...25.
[[Recurring Insecurity]: Recurring Insecurity's reapplication effect no longer works with Soul Barbs. (consider it like Wastrel's Worry)
[[Visions of Regret]: Lower damage to 10...75.

I should be the new skill balancer.

ele pl · Dec 06, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

@up
I agree with all, but BA, and WE, BA dont need a nerf at all, and WE only need a longer recharge/shorter duration.
Wheres wow, make haste, shadow form on your list?

We don't need new skill balancer, we need more care from Izzy's side. I'd like to have GW2 2-3 months later, but playing a good, balanced pvp in GW1

snaek · Dec 06, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by izzy

Costume Brawl: Looking at Costume Brawl some.

suhweeeeet
i cant wait for this

Forgotton200 · Dec 06, 2008, 10:28 PM // 22:28

While I went to bed, I can't believe all these things about izzy has been posted and that every single people is saying similar opinions (actually, it's a fact now) about pvp. It is clear this game is now called PVE Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Everything he needs to do is pretty much already done for him.

[[Rend Enchantments]: 10 energy, 25 second recharge, 1...3 enchantments, with 2 enchantments at 9 curse spec, 3 at 13 curse spec. Increase damage taken to 85...30 per monk enchantment.
[[Gaze of Contempt]: 25 recharge. Change functionality to "If target foe is under 50% health, that foe loses 3 enchantments."
[[Warrior's Endurance]: 5e, 25s recharge, 2...19 duration. Change functionality to "You gain 3 energy for every successful attack you make. This skill ends when you use a skill that costs energy."
[[Hunter's Shot]: Increase casting time to normal.
[[Melandru's Shot]: Lower damage to +8...20.
[[Burning Arrow]: Lower damage to +5...22. Decrease burning duration on all specs by 1.
[[Lyssa's Aura]: Change to: "This enchantment reapplies itself every time you cast a Mesmer spell on a foe."
[[Mirror of Ice]: Reduce damage to 5...25.
[[Recurring Insecurity]: Recurring Insecurity's reapplication effect no longer works with Soul Barbs. (consider it like Wastrel's Worry)
[[Visions of Regret]: Lower damage to 10...75.

I should be the new skill balancer.

I have absolutely nothing to complain about this. Those skills are all from our wonderful meta.

upier · Dec 06, 2008, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. His refusal to nerf the root cause of degenerate builds, and instead nerfing some collateral aspect of the builds, always ends up destroying non-degenerate builds in the process, and leaving the degenerate builds capable of returning.

The most famous example is probably IWAY. It was clear to everyone and their brother that IWAY (the skill) was the root cause of the problems with IWAY (the teambuild). Everyone knew that IWAY (the skill) needed to be nerfed to put an end to it. So what happened? Orders got nerfed. That's right, Orders. The end result? PvE Orders necros in the Ruins of the Tombs B/P teams all watched their builds go poof as collateral damage for no good reason; and IWAY (the teambuild) continues to live on to this day in modified forms (though it's often said Nightfall Powercreep finally ended its superiority).

The example that still pisses me off the most is Spirit Spam. N/Rt's were holding halls using spirits + soul reaping for an infinite energy engine. Again, it was clear to everyone that, to put an end to this, soul reaping needed to be changed to not trigger on spirits. What happened? Soul reaping on spirits was reduced to half and soul reaping was raped with a ridiculous, clumsy timer. PvE necros everywhere were (and some remain) rightfully pissed off about their gutted primary attribute; and Spirit Spam teams continued to hold halls. Eventually the timer was made a little less bad (it's still awful though), and Spirit Spam was finally killed by totally removing SR triggering from spirits, like it should have been in the first place.

Actually, no.
One picture isn't enough for this monster of fail.

ensoriki · Dec 07, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Psyduck? Ouch...

Sol Deathgard · Dec 07, 2008, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Soul reaping on spirits was reduced to half and soul reaping was raped with a ridiculous, clumsy timer. PvE necros everywhere were (and some remain) rightfully pissed off about their gutted primary attribute.

As a pve necro & talking to alot of other pve necros that actually have some skill, this comment is an insult. Soul Reaping is still rediculously overpowered to the point that the only time I don't have full energy is when there is nothing left to kill. Those people that are pissed off about the "nerf" to soul reaping reaping are the types of players that never were good at this game, & never will be good at this game.
And before anyone starts with the "you're pve you don't know what you're talking about" crap, i've also won Halls, more then once & was in a top 300 gvg team. The only real complaint I have is all the morons out there that demoralize the new players so much that they don't wanna pvp anymore, then turn around & complain about how HA/GvG is dying cause there's no new blood. Those people need to get a life or end theirs.

Chthon · Dec 07, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

He usually knows. Jaden and I have been telling him what skill changes are going to drastically affect PvE if we see the potential changes ahead of time. He either doesn't see it, ignores it, or thinks we're bad at PvE. Then he makes the change and get bashed by the PvE community.

Ensign specifically warned him about OoU; he ignored the warning and mucked it up anyway.

Quote:

And I don't understand people having to state over and over the obvious that GW is a PvE game now. No shit PvE is going to attract the most people. You can have mental retardation or be an ignorant little kid and still enjoy the PvE content. Bad players can cry on forums and beg to make PvE easier so that idiots with no skill can perform well. You can't "make PvP easier" if you're a bad player.

1. It's an issue because Izzy still doesn't get it. (Nor do other folks at a-net.)

2. You're right that it's hard to enjoy play-to-win PvP when you always lose. But PvP doesn't have to be play-to-win. GW should have a game mode that resembles the play-for-fun atmosphere of Goldeneye or Worms. Give us an option at the guild lord to make our own matches where we set the team sizes, the team members, the win conditions, the map, the player handicaps, and some other options. Even bad players can enjoy that sort of PvP.

Forgotton200 · Dec 07, 2008, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Deathgard

The only real complaint I have is all the morons out there that demoralize the new players so much that they don't wanna pvp anymore, then turn around & complain about how HA/GvG is dying cause there's no new blood. Those people need to get a life or end theirs.

So you want them to suicide if they complain? It's you who needs a life for taking this game so serious at the point where death in RL needs to occur.

LOL.

Edit: noticed you mentioned you're a necro player, that class suits you very well since you like to tell other people to kill themself if they complain and necro's revolves around deaths. Take a deep breath, count to 10 and relax. This is the internet.

Back to the topic, where is the place to pressure izzy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Example: Every high-end PvE necromancer currently playing let out a huge "WTF?!" when he recently nerfed OoU and declared it a buff. Why'd he do it? Turns out he didn't know that anyone even used it, much less that it was the unquestionably best elite for human MM builds. At least he changed it back after enough pressure from the community...

He's obviously getting no pressure atm from the looks of it.

Makkert · Dec 07, 2008, 08:10 AM // 08:10

a new thread!
what will it be?
bashing Izzy because of balance.
that is refreshingly new, we hadnt had one of those before.

Forgotton200 · Dec 07, 2008, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Im gonna sound like some loser , who doesn't know what im talking about.

...but I'd prefer ensign than Izzy *DONT HIT ME T_T*

Also...I believe GW1 would be screwed regardless, as long as Izzy was workin on updates, because he always adds some wierd random thing 25% of the time...which doesn't work.

Just wondering but who is Ensign? And why do you prefer ensign over izzy? I'm guessing ensign was a formal skill balancer? If so, then it makes sense. I seen his name couple times when someone mentioned about Ensign predicting that this game is going to become one dimensional (too late, it's one dimensional already...metas). I seen his name in other threads as well. I did a wiki search but only got these guys:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ensign_Charehli

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ensign_Jahan

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ensign_Lumi

And btw, this izzy bashing needs to stop. This thread is now called "izzy appreciation thread" for making (balance wise) one of the most successful mmorpg game (in before "guild wars isn't mmorpg") of all times. Let's all appreciate him for his hard work!

Productivity · Dec 07, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26

I don't know why Anet is even bothering to employ Izzy on GW2, given that by the time they release they'll have pissed off nearly all of the PVP community such that nobody will want to play anyway. I can only assume that there is going to be no serious PVP in GW2, and Izzy is hard at working making sure the GW2 equivalent of alliance battles is well balanced.

In all seriousness though, Arena Net is in grave danger here of destroying what goodwill is left within the PVP community towards them with their neglect. If they don't care about PVP in GW2, well then it's no issue for them. However, if they intend to have a serious PVP side of the game then they need to start adressing issues to do with GW PVP, otherwise after three years of neglect, many people are going to abandon them. I'll play GW now, because I allready have it, but I wouldn't pay for the privelidge to at the moment.

Either Anets management are being wilfully ignorant, completely dumb or don't care about PVP in their game. None of these options bodes well for the future of this game.

t00115577 · Dec 07, 2008, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Only thing that shocked me here is that they are keeping Izzy to do PVP for GW2? wtf anet!! Give that man his marching orders pls before its too late for GW2.

And btw, lol @ how Izzy is looking at the Costume Brawl. Please leave it alone! Its the only balanced PVP in GW rofl.

ele pl · Dec 07, 2008, 09:57 AM // 09:57

This "looking at CB some" is there for 2-3 months. You guys realize, that this page was updated 2 months ago last time, right?

scruffy · Dec 07, 2008, 11:18 AM // 11:18

I think they just need to hire another skill balancer...as people have already said izzy just doesn't have time to balance GW2 and GW1 at the same time. It's not rocket science that only izzy can do, it just takes some time and thought.

I think the games could benefit a lot from having more than 1 balancer, whether because of basic time restraints or because two brains are better than one.

He wouldn't have to work on GW2, Izzy can balance that game himself, but they could at least hire someone to keep GW1 from dissolving.